By Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter
There’s a lot you’ve learned in school and one thing most of you think you know that you don’t is how the job market works. My guest, Steven Rothberg of CollegeRecruiter.com and I discuss a veritable Top 10 List of them to keep you from shooting yourself in the foot.
Figuring Out The Career To Pursue While in School
Jeff Altman 00:05
So my guest today is Steven Rothberg. Steven is the founder and chief visionary officer of collegerecruiter.com, a job site where fortune 1000 companies, government agencies, and other employers who hire at scale advertise their job openings, which tend to be part time, seasonal, internships, and other entry level jobs that require zero to three years of experience. At any given time. There are about, catch this one, folks, 2 million active job postings on collegerecruiter.com. Steven, welcome. Thanks for making time today.
Steven Rothberg 00:44
It’s so great to be here. Jeff, the sun is shining and your face is beaming.
Jeff Altman 00:48
Oh, I know I was entertaining. So folks, we’re gonna be talking to those of you who are about to graduate school or, are in your senior year and talk with you about some of the misconceptions. I think you have. I know Steven believes you have, as you enter into the workforce about what this process is going to be like. So we’re going to do a top 10 list. Ooh. Steven, what do you think the first one is? Okay.
Steven Rothberg 01:23
Wow, I guess I’m David Letterman here. Right? So with the top 10 list, probably the biggest misconception that we hear at collegerecruiter from employers, from students, recent grads, Career Services is this, and it’s been this way forever. We went live in 96. It’s been that this way, since before we went live. But people have this perception that if they . . . that, by the day, they graduate, they need to have a job lined up. And maybe that was true. Yeah, it’s like maybe that was true when my grandparents were graduating, and maybe even my parents, like in the 40s, and 50s. But, you know, for as long as I’ve been able to put my own socks on, it just hasn’t been true. The reality is, is that in most years, most students graduate without a job. And within six months of graduating, the vast majority of them have a job in their chosen career path. That path might be consistent with their major. They might be an engineer if they went through engineering school. And it might be something completely different. They might have gone through engineering school, but what they really want to do is create art and sell it on Etsy. And that’s what they’re doing. Whatever it is. So you don’t have a job lined up by graduation? Take a chill pill. You’re in good company.
Jeff Altman 02:52
It is so true. And even when I went back to what was in school, and was graduating back when dinosaurs roamed the earth. Yeah, there were some type A personalities that were working hard, or in their senior year, they were wearing suits on to the college campuses. Folks, you’ve seen movies from the 60s. No one ever wore suits. But these, these little Republicans, no did no disrespect to Republicans, I really mean that. But 1960, come on, these Nixon Republicans were wearing suits on campus, and we were making fun of them relentlessly. So I’ll just simply say, Don’t sweat it. Don’t sweat it. You weren’t focused on this. You were having a good time, trying to get grades . . . maybe. And now you’re out there. And now you’re saying to yourself, “oh, shoot, or maybe the other word. I have to find a job. Because I don’t want to live with these people forever.”
Steven Rothberg 03:53
They don’t want you to live with them forever either.
Jeff Altman 03:58
But they tend to be more discreet about it, because they understand that they’re the fallback position. So they really want to get you out. So it’s now the time to start focusing. Maybe.
Steven Rothberg 04:09
Yeah, and to be clear, right, Jeff, there’s nothing wrong with having a job before you graduate. There’s a lot of good stuff with that I did. And it relieved a lot of pressure, a lot of stress. I could enjoy the last few months of school. That was all great. But don’t sweat it if you’re in roughly the half that don’t. Ready for number two?
Jeff Altman 04:31
number 2!.
Steven Rothberg 04:35
At some point in this, you’re going to have to pretend that you’re the count on Sesame Street and but not this one. So here’s another really big misconception and I hear this more from employers and more from the College Career Service Offices than I do from the actual candidates. But a lot of employers and a lot of career service office people would have us believe that the only good place to find an internship if you’re a student or the only good place to find an entry level job if you’re graduating is through your college or university career service office. And I have two letters for you– BS.
Jeff Altman 05:11
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I have a friend who’s worked in one of those college offices. And he’s a former executive recruiter, retired, moved south. And every once in a while, he teaches classes. Now he’s gotten his PhD, but because of his previous career, they bring him into the career services office, to teach folks there how to do it. And they are clueless, absolutely clueless. And yes, some jobs may come into their offices. But most of the time, they’re gonna give you some of the most asinine, anachronistic ideas about how to find work. No, this is not the place to focus.
Steven Rothberg 05:54
There are there are about 7400 post-secondary schools in the US. One year, two year four year colleges and universities. There is no way that there are 7400 highly qualified people in that role. And many of those offices have multiple people. I think the reality is, if you go to one of the 100, or 200, sort of best funded schools, you’re going to probably get some really good advice. But for the vast majority of the other career service offices, they’ve got one paid staff person, maybe a couple students who are working on like a work study program. And even if they’ve got great training, and they really want to be able to help you, they just don’t have the time. So there’s an association that a lot of employers and Career Service Offices belong to that’s called the National Association of Colleges and Employers–NACE. And they reported, I think, probably five, six years ago, something like that, that only 15–15% of students find jobs through their career service office. So if you’re not having success finding that job through your career service office, again, take a chill pill 85% of your classmates are just like you. Use the office, they do have good information, there are well trained people in those offices, the vast majority of them, they want to be able to help you. Most of them don’t have time to be able to help you as much as they would like. And definitely lots of students find jobs through career services. But the reality is, most don’t. So use other channels.
Jeff Altman 07:38
And here we have one of those friendly disagreements. My experience has been not all that competent, and I must in all candor say, you know, if you’re in an A plus university, you probably have an A+ Career Service.
Steven Rothberg 07:50
Yes.
Jeff Altman 07:51
If you went to a school no one’s ever heard the name of before. probably you don’t.
Steven Rothberg 07:57
They don’t.
Jeff Altman 07:58
You have to start looking outside of that venue, even though they promised you upon admission that they were there to help. Just don’t have the ability to.
Steven Rothberg 08:08
Yeah, and as an as a University of Minnesota alum, I think we can agree that you definitely don’t want to go to the University of Wisconsin or count on any help from them. Right? That’s just an expression better dead than red. Sorry, just had to work that in here somehow. Number three?
Jeff Altman 08:26
Number three.
Launch Your Career. Get Ahead.
Steven Rothberg 08:29
Number three is the flip side of this, that using your Career Service Office is a waste of time. This I hear from students, I usually hear this from students or recent grads, who have never actually used their career service office. So it’s kind of like friends of mine who won’t try sushi but say that sushi is really awful, right? If you’ve tried the sushi, and you really don’t like it, that’s fair. If you’ve used your career service office, and they were a bunch of idiots, they couldn’t help you. They wouldn’t help you, whatever. Fair enough. But if you’ve haven’t tried using your Career Service Office, do. Most of those offices do have good information. Most of them do have employers coming on campus who are specifically looking to hire people like you. Most of the career counselors, Career Service office directors, do have a lot of training to help people like you. And so a lot of students do find jobs or other help–Resume writing assistance, interview coaching, whatever through those office. It is not a waste of time for some students, but again, I think we’re in agreement that the better funded the office, the more likely it is that you’re going to get the help that you need. And the reality is universities have chosen to fund football stadiums a lot more than they’ve chosen to fund career services,
Jeff Altman 10:05
Go figure. The place where they make the money, the place where it’s already too late, you know, not getting any more money from you. So what a surprise. Are we up to number four?
Steven Rothberg 10:23
Four, absolutely, we’re seeing was just still in single digits. So you and I are able to count this side. Another misconception and this one, I’m going to pin right on the students and recent grads, and this is the cheapness factor. I have a friend who has a computer, and she has written three resumes in her life, and therefore she should write mine. No, if you can afford it, have a professional do it. If your car needs repairs, might you have a friend who can repair it? Yeah, maybe, you know, if you need your wisdom teeth pulled, might you have a friend who can do that, maybe, um, you know if they’re a dentist, and they have the proper tools and whatever. But the reality is, is that very few people have any experience whatsoever in writing resumes, and writing them in a way that is compelling, and designed to do what the resume is designed to do, right? In my view, the resume is a document that is supposed to get you from from point zero to .1. In other words, starting your application and getting an interview. And once you have that interview, then a lot of other things become a heck of a lot more important. But a resume is a, it’s a specific kind of a document. You can be the world’s best writer, and be horrible at writing resumes, or the other way around. So get help from an expert, whether that’s some kind of great software, whether that’s a career coach, whether that’s somebody who writes resumes for a living, but, boy, when I see people complaining about they’ve applied to 50 jobs, and I look at their skill set, and I look at the jobs they’re applying to. And it’s like there’s something missing here. Why aren’t they getting interviews, nine times out of 10, it’s the resume,
Jeff Altman 12:21
and the resume that they’re sending out repetitively without edits to demonstrate how they fit that particular job. They act like the broken watch that’s right twice a day. They send that out constantly. And it doesn’t make a case for that job. It’s one thing if you post that resume on a job board, because you need something generic to draw people to you but when you’re applying for something, you want to do a certain amount of tailoring to demonstrate the fit. But your point was that all your friends and all your family, they’re not resume writers. That even your Dad, your mom who may work professionally, your aunt or uncle, whoever it is, they’re not resume writers. They may read them, but it’s different. So hire someone who knows how to do this because, trust me, it’s different writing for you than for someone with 15 or 20 years of experience.
Steven Rothberg 13:22
Yeah,
Jeff Altman 13:23
and they’re not gonna know how to write your resume. And you’re gonna look at it, and you’re gonna have to smile and say, “Thanks, mom. Thanks, dad.” And you know, it sucks. They feel like you have to use it.
Steven Rothberg 13:37
Yeah. And then you don’t want to show them the resume that you’re actually using, which is not the one that they’d helped you with. But hey, moms and dads are great. As a dad, I can say dads are great. Well, occasionally, maybe some dads, I’ll meet when at some point. Ready for the next one?
Jeff Altman 13:54
Number five.
Recent Graduate? Five Things to Keep In Mind While Negotiating an Offer
Steven Rothberg 13:56
If I don’t graduate with an internship, I’ll never get hired into a career related role, Wrong. Wrong, Wrong.
Jeff Altman 14:03
They ought to do a song on this one.
Steven Rothberg 14:10
So this is a misconception that I think is spawned more by the Career Service office folks than than anybody else. And one of the things that I really detest about how the specifically American higher education system has evolved, and it’s different in other countries, this is not how the world operates, is that the American higher education system is all about the money. And one of the ways that schools make money off the backs of students who are racking up a massive amount of student debt is to say to those students that you can only call something an internship if you pay us money, so that you can call it an internship, and then we’ll give you one course credit, that’s going to get you closer to graduation by about 14 minutes. And it’s despicable, quite frankly. You can go and you can work and do any job for any employer without the permission of your college or university. And don’t let them tell you otherwise, if you can’t call it an internship for purposes of getting class credit, you can still call it an internship on your resume because that resume is between you and your employer or potential employer. So if your employer calls it an internship, so can you, even if you don’t pay your school hundreds of dollars for the privilege of having that internship and getting a measly course credit hour. At the end of the day, employers want to hire the candidate that is most likely to be able to do the job. And if you can demonstrate to that employer, that you’re looking to hire me to do X, Y, and Z. and I have done X, Y and Z for this other organization, then that employer is not going to care what your job title was. They’re not going to care what you were paid. They want more than anything else to know that you can do the work. Your previous job title matters to get you your foot in the door. The pay you got matters to some employers who are going to try to base the pay, what they pay you on what you were paid in your previous job, although that’s becoming less common. But an internship is not something that is in control of your Career Service Office.
Jeff Altman 16:48
So true. I did a master’s in social work because I was thinking of becoming becoming a therapist in private practice. And we were forced to do four semesters of field work and pay for a part time job is what it comes down to. So we were paying the course credits, which were more than a few $100. at the masters level, for the privilege of going to in my case, the first year was awful. A social services agency in midtown Manhattan, where termination of the client began at the time that they were doing the intake with them, because they were never coming back because it was a place where there were a lot of drugs and alcohol. And they were just there for the night and gone. But you had to go through this. And folks, you don’t have to in a lot of programs. Master’s in social work, you’re stuck with that. But many of you don’t have to do this. Even if you’ve got a part time job, I think the idea is if you can flip this into something full time at graduation, and after graduation, that’s the original idea. The internships, they get a chance to try you out and figure out if they want to hire you. But so much of this now is just garbage, no reason to put up with.
Steven Rothberg 18:10
Yeah, and you know, the smaller the organization you’re working for, the more likely it is that your manager or the owner or the executive director, would be very happy to have the conversation with you of “can I call this an internship?” I mean, we’ve we’ve had students work for us that we weren’t advertising the role as an internship. They came to work for us. And they’re like, you know, I’m basically an intern and can I call it that? It’d be helpful on my resume.” It’s like, hell yeah, what you’re doing is that is is basically an internship and oh, by the way we’re paying you. So let’s not get into that part of the conversation. But by the way, the Social Work work that you were describing, sounds like they were paying you in drugs and alcohol. I think that’s more than fair compensation for that kind of work. But another story for now.
Jeff Altman 18:58
Not the case. Not the case!
Steven Rothberg 19:02
So, next item. Number six, is it? Yeah. Okay. I think so. Yeah. So now now we’re sort of starting to lose track; it must be the drugs and alcohol. So Okay, the next one is, this was something really common for my parents’ generation and the ones before that. So think like older baby boomers, you know, people who were born in, say, like the 30s 40s, maybe 50s had this attitude that if you’re good at something, that’s the career path you should pursue. So, like my father, for example, really good at math. So therefore, he became an accountant. Miserable at being an accountant. He was good at it, but he didn’t like it. So at a relatively early age, I think he was in his 30s. He got the heck out of accounting and did something where he could enjoy his life. That I think is something that there’s sort of a current generation of students, Gen Z have a better handle around, it’s one thing to be good at something, it’s another thing to have to do that day after day after day after day for the rest of your life. So just because you’re good at something doesn’t mean that’s what you need to have as your chosen career path.
Jeff Altman 20:14
That example of your dad growing up back in the day, was very common. And I remember when I went into recruiting, I got that message from my dad who’s tried to be helpful to me, because I’m someone who graduated with an undergraduate in political science. For those of you who are going to listen to this, as a podcast, I gave a thumbs up and a sarcastic look on my face. So the reality is, you may not like it, even though you may have an intrinsic capability to do it. Just be aware, if you’re not sure of what to do. I always encourage people, there are career assessment exams, that will give you ideas. They’re not perfect. You have to test what they recommend to you but it gives you some ideas of things to explore well. How do you test those ideas? You talk to people who are doing the work. I don’t know anyone who is doing the work! You can find them on LinkedIn. You can ask people that you know. There’s lots of different ways that you can get introduced to someone who’s very willing, excuse my slang here, to talk to the nice puppy who’s thinking of going into the field is going to sit there panting in front of them and give you a real idea of what it’s like to work in the field. The Good, the Bad, and The Ugly, just so you know, because surprises are never good.
Steven Rothberg 21:45
Yeah, although what is always good, it’s a Clint Eastwood reference. So the good, the bad, and the ugly for those of you who aren’t film buffs, but another misconception is higher education is a waste of money. Now I see this BS being trotted out more and more over the last few years, mostly by people who are wealthy, mostly by people who are highly educated themselves, mostly by people who would never dream of telling their own kids not to pursue some kind of higher education. It is an excuse for keeping lower income and middle income people in lower income and middle income jobs. Education is always a good thing. Political Science degree is unlikely to lead you directly into a job. There just aren’t very many job postings that for political scientist, but it does do a phenomenal job of training your mind and the critical thinking skills that you acquire in a major like that are more in demand by more employers than anything else. You can train somebody to read a balance sheet, but you can’t train them to think critically.
How College Seniors Can Prepare For The Job Market
Jeff Altman 23:10
Thank you for letting me know that that’s those years of tuition I did back in the stone ages were not a complete wastec of time.
Steven Rothberg 23:22
You know, another one that bugs me is that there’s a misconception is that you need to accept any job that is offered to you that offers great experience, instead of great pay. This is sort of the unpaid internship scenario or somebody who’s graduating and being paid poverty wages, and the employer will basically say, ‘Well, you should be so grateful to work for us. We’re going to give you all this fantastic experience, and we’re going to pay you a pittance or perhaps nothing.’ Now, in some years, during recessions or during depressions, maybe you have to choose between a job that offers great experience and great pay. This is not one of those job markets, you absolutely should be able to find a job that offers both great experience and great pay.
Jeff Altman 24:25
And we’re recording this in April of 2022. You may watch this at a different time were times are different. But right now we’re dealing with labor shortages, and firms desperate to find people. They want people who meet certain standards, so they keep recycling resumes over and over again, without pulling the trigger many times. But the reality is, don’t fall for this BS. Unless your family is independently wealthy and is willing to write checks to you to deal with your apartment, to buy you a house, to pay your bills, you’re going to need money from somewhere. And if you can’t afford to go to work for someplace, don’t do it, I’ll also let you in on a little secret, folks. Once you start that job, continue to look for a while to find something that actually will pay you money. And if asked about it, because I never believe in lying, you tell individuals I needed to get to work. I’m making less than subsistence wages, I want to come to join your firm. I’m going to commit to being with you for a lengthy period of time. Pay me properly. You know what cost of living is like here? Imagine being in the Bay Area making $15 an hour and expecting to find that pay your rent and eat one or the other.
Steven Rothberg 25:51
Yeah. And the another problem with taking a job that– this isn’t a misconception, but just to build on what you were saying, Jeff, is that if you start off working for say, $15 an hour, and you should really be working at $25 an hour. It becomes really, really hard to get your pay up to the level where it should be because the employer that hired you is unlikely to basically double your salary. The next time you’re that you deserve a raise, they might increase it by five or 10%. You’re just never going to catch up. And there are definitely a lot of employers still who will say “Oh, well, okay, well, we’re gonna consider hiring you for this job, what were you making in your last job, and you tell them 15 bucks an hour, and then they’re good, maybe they’re gonna offer you 20, when really you should be getting 25 or 30. So if you start off your career making below market wages, it’s going to be really hard to catch up.
Jeff Altman 26:50
They’re already places in the country where it’s no longer legal to ask about your current salary. That’s starting to eliminate that scenario. But many people, most parts of the United States, they can still ask that. And in other parts of the world, they could ask. So just be aware, if you take something below market, you’re gonna hurt yourself for many years to come. It’s gonna be hard to catch up.
Steven Rothberg 27:15
Yep, absolutely. Um, two more, I think
Jeff Altman 27:19
So I think two. So we’re up to number nine.
Steven Rothberg 27:24
Number nine is pressure that I think parents and grandparents put on mostly young adults. So what are you going to do with your life? Like when you’re 20, or 21? You know, what you’re going to be doing when you’re 60? Even if you think you know what you’re going to be doing when you’re 60. Right? Put down the bong because, no, you don’t. You, at best, I think can map out the next five years. You know, for those of us of a certain generation or older that remember the Soviet Union, highly centralized economy, like the trains didn’t move unless somebody in the Kremlin said, move that train from A to B, even the Soviets only had five year plans, because they knew to plan further out than that was just a falling. Now, that’s not to say that you can’t have dreams, and think, ‘Hey, I would love when I’m 60 to be doing X, Y and Z.’ But to map out your career for the next 40 years, I’m going to be doing this for two years, and then that for three years, and then that for 18 months, then that for four years. Gee! No way. So I would say at best, try to figure out where you want to be five years from now and then map that out. There are a number of tools online that are great for career mapping. One of them is a partner of collegerecruiters. It’s a it’s a site called zippia. Z-I-P-P-I-A. And you can do things like put in a major, and it’ll say, Oh, if you have this major, these are the different occupational paths that you can follow and this is what they pay. And you can click and search for jobs in those areas. Or in this case, you can say, ‘hey, I want to have a job with this job title. How do I get there?’ And it will say these are the 12 different paths to getting to that. I want to be a project manager. These are the 12 different ways that you can become a project manager. But don’t try to. . . Don’t allow yourself to be put in that parent or grandparent box of what are you going to do when you’re their age.
Grad Student? 4 Pointers to Help You Prepare for Your Job Search
Jeff Altman 29:41
You know, they and most of you were raised with the idea of climbing the ladder. as though there’s a ladder to success. Reid Hoffman, who founded LinkedIn came up with a different concept a few years ago. He refers to me as a career jungle gym where you’re leaping from one part of the jungle gym to another, because there’s no direct progressions anymore. So you need to be alert to how your field is evolving, and where the opportunities are there because the path is not linear anymore. Especially with all the changes in technology that have occurred and are about to occur, you have to be the CEO of your own career. Don’t outsource your career planning to your employer. They have their interests at heart, not yours. And by looking out for yourself, number one, your wages will be higher. And number two, you’re not going to get caught short, like musical chairs. Remember musical chairs like when you were little, and discover that the field that you’ve committed to is going away. So be aware of that jungle gym idea, folks. It does make a difference. And number 10.
Steven Rothberg 31:01
Number 10 is taking a few months off after graduation is a bad idea. Misconception! I think it is one of the greatest things that a recent grad can do. And those few months off might come immediately after graduation. Or it might be a year or two or three years after graduation. And if you can’t afford it, take a few months off and but you can figure out a way of taking a couple of weeks in between graduation and your first job or a couple of weeks in between your second job and your third job. Do it. You know when we look back on our lives, and people who are on their deathbeds, no one ever says, I wish I had worked more. But a lot of them say things like ‘I wish I had experienced more, traveled more, you know, sheltered some puppies so that they could find forever homes, whatever it is that really charges your batteries. If you’re financially able to take that time, do it. We just hired a new head of sales and partnerships for collegerecruiter. And he was working for the same company for I think it was eight years. And he says to us, is it okay if I take a week off from my last day with my old employer and my first day with collegerecruiter? Right. And in our minds, it’s like when we wish you had started six months ago. But yeah, take that week off. Once you’ve been here a month, we’re gonna hardly even remember that week. But it will allow you to, to recharge your batteries and to come in feeling fresh and invigorated. And you know, when people going straight from you know, 12, 13, 14 years of school right into the workforce, and then maybe right into another job and then right into another job. For God’s sake, breathe, take a breath.
Jeff Altman 33:02
It’s so true. No one is going to care that you took a few weeks off, a few months off after graduation. You’re a kid, you’re supposed to do stuff like this. Enjoy your life because you when you get to be my age. I’m not going to be assumptive about you–your age, ok. There comes a point where you do have regrets about not having done certain things. For now, you may be pushed, shall we say, by parents or other individuals that do stuff that doesn’t ring true. Go out and have a good time. You have my permission. My permission is more important than your parents. Right?
33:46
Right. Yeah. You know, when I’m talking to people about like, what kind of job should they be looking for? So like, one thing is you want a job that’s going to allow you to pay your bills. You want a job that’s going to allow you to do meaningful work, , something that you’re interested in, that you care about. And you want a job that maybe leaves the world a better place than what you found it in. And if you can get all three of those. What else is there?
Jeff Altman 34:13
Well, this is where I was about to pull the joke of ‘greed is good.’ Sorry, an old 1980s movie reference, folks. I apologize.
Steven Rothberg 34:25
Yes, Mr. Gordon Gekko.
Jeff Altman 34:28
It’s an Oliver Stone movie, so I get permission to use it. But the fact of the matter is, this is what you’ll aspire to. And that’s and for now upon graduation, have a little bit of a life because you’re gonna be working a lot of hours going forward. Steven, this has been a lot of fun. How can people find that more about you, CollegeRecruiter , EVERYTHING?
Steven Rothberg 34:53
Yeah, sure. So if you’re looking for part time, seasonal, internships, entry level jobs, we focus on those that have that requires zero to three years of experience. We’re global. So we have English language jobs in dozens of countries. Go to our site collegerecruiter.com. You don’t need to log in. In fact, we don’t accept, we don’t make it possible for anybody to register with our site or provide any personally identifiable information. So you know we’re not going to be taking your data and then selling it to the highest bidder. We have literally 10s of thousands of employers who are advertising their jobs with us. And it’s our mission to help students and recent grads find better careers, great careers.
Steven Rothberg 35:43
And if an employer happens to stumble into this because they’re curious? Same thing? There’s information on the site about how to advertise with you I’m sure?
Steven Rothberg 35:51
Yeah, absolutely. They can they can email me it’s Steven@collegerecruiter.com or LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/StevenRothberg. Hit me up.
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Personal Branding: What Are Your Strengths
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